1947 tribunal referred to in exchanges after statement on Lawlor

The Taoiseach said he had not received a response from Mr Liam Lawlor, following the joint statement by the party leaders expressing concern at the refusal of the Dublin West TD to appear before the Flood tribunal.

Mr Ahern was replying to the Labour leader, Mr Ruairi Quinn, who asked if Mr Lawlor had responded in view of the "unprecedented joint statement" issued on Wednesday.

"No," said Mr Ahern, "but Deputy Liam Lawlor is not a deputy of my party now." The Fine Gael leader, Mr John Bruton, observed: "He was elected as one."

Mr John Gormley (Green Party, Dublin South East) said that under the Constitution, TDs could make their own rules in the House. "Would the Taoiseach agree that we need to change standing orders so that we can impose sanctions on members who behave inappropriately relating to tribunals?"

Mr Ahern said the procedure covering that was already in standing orders. "However, on the overall issue, if the House sets up a tribunal and gives powers to tribunals and, in this case, gave powers to tribunals to take remedial action when somebody does not co-operate, as the deputy pointed out to the House before, there are certain rules about how the subject matter of statements on sitting tribunals established by the House under the Acts and under standing order 56 should be dealt with.

"They are set down in both standing orders and precedents. These matters have happened here before and the precedents and the standing orders were based on these discussions. I do not think they were lightly done at the time, and I do not see why we should be trying to undo them. Bringing in new reforms, or new institutional matters, is a different matter for the future."

Mr Bruton said the Taoiseach should take account of the fact that those who had been most noteworthy in not co-operating with tribunals were either present or former members of the House.

"In view of that, surely there is a very serious contradiction and conflict at the heart of the way in which we are dealing with that?"

Mr Ahern said there was a precedent which, unfortunately, happened long before the current issue, where members of the House did not co-operate with tribunals. "But I will not go into history."

Mr Bruton said both people involved happened to be members of Fianna Fail.

Mr Ahern, in a reference to the Locke's Distillery tribunal set up following allegations made by the then Fine Gael TD, the late Mr Oliver J. Flanagan, replied that in October 1947 Mr Bruton's party, and several members of it, were involved.

Mr Bruton replied: "Does the Taoiseach recall that was about the occupant of his office receiving a watch from somebody? Does he not agree that members of his party have received a great deal more than watches from people in recent times?"

Mr Ahern said: "For the historical record, it was about this House wanting to debate allegations made by members of the deputy's party. These were subsequently proved in the Locke's tribunal to be outrageous and without substance. My party set up a tribunal to deal with them, but the deputy's party would not turn up to make the case."

Later Mr Flanagan's son, Mr Charles Flanagan (FG, Laois-Offaly) intervened in the exchanges to say: "With reference to the Taoiseach's comments about certain events of 1947, in which I have a certain personal interest, I would welcome a debate on any aspect of the matter he might wish to pursue.

"Let me turn the clock forward 53 years to the present day, and ask the Taoiseach whether his party was officially represented yesterday at a funeral in London of a person with certain ethical standards?"

The Minister for Social, Community and Family Affairs, Mr Ahern, said: "That is disgraceful - the deputy is really scraping the barrel."

Mr Pat Rabbitte (Labour, Dublin South West) suggested that the Taoiseach provide deputies with a researcher.

The Minister for Social, Community and Family Affairs remarked: "The researcher would have to travel to Russia."

Mr Bruton said that going back to 1947 made the House look ridiculous. "The references I was making were to Mr Haughey, to be precise, and Deputy Lawlor, both recent or current members of the House who have not co-operated."

Mr Ahern said the Dail's standing orders and precedents were "based on the deliberations, experiences and facts of a long history of the House."