RTÉ’s PAC hearing: 10 things we learned on an ‘extraordinary’ day

On Wednesday night, Minister for Media Catherine Martin laid down the gauntlet to RTÉ chiefs and told them that it was “vital” that they “engage in as transparent a manner” with the Public Accounts Committee.

The PAC hearing into misstated payments to Ryan Tubridy took place on Thursday afternoon, and politicians such as Fianna Fáil’s Cormac Devlin noted a change of tone, after Chair of the RTÉ Board Siún Ní Raghallaigh bluntly said she believed “this was an act designed to deceive.” Labour TD Alan Kelly said it was the most “extraordinary” hearing he could remember. Here are ten key facts we learned from the exchanges.

1. Dee Forbes may be compelled to appear before the PAC

At the very outset of the hearing, PAC chair Brian Stanley said the committee will soon seek powers to compel former director general Dee Forbes to appear when “it is medically appropriate to do so.” She is not the only one who politicians are determined to hear from. In Brussels, Taoiseach Leo Varadkar said that Ryan Tubridy, his agent Noel Kelly and Ms Forbes should appear before an Oireachtas Committee. “We are trying to get to the bottom of what happened when it comes to these unusual, clandestine payments in RTÉ,” Mr Varadkar said. Beyond the main officials, he said there are “other people who could shine a light on this, and they include Ryan Tubridy, they include his agent, they include Dee Forbes. There are procedures, they will be treated fairly and I think that would be the right thing to do from their part. They may have a story to tell, and I think it’s right that they should be allowed to tell their side of the story.”

2. RTÉ board will be overhauled or ‘reconstituted’

The first task of the incoming Director General of RTÉ will be to reconstitute the broadcaster’s Executive Board, the PAC was told. Interim Deputy Director General Adrian Lynch said the board failed in its collective responsibility in the events leading to the misstatement of payments to Ryan Tubridy. Furthermore, the Government review will also examine the same issue. The secretary general of the Department of Media Katherine Licken said a planned external review into RTÉ will also examine whether its current governance framework is “fit for purpose”.

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3. Salaries beyond the top ten will now also be published

Chair of the board Siún Ní Raghallaigh said further salary figures will be published for other high earners in the organisation. She undertook to do so “in as soon as is practicably possible.” She gave the answer in response to questions from Fianna Fáil TD James O’Connor. There was an awkward moment halfway through the committee hearing when chief financial officer Richard Collins was asked what his salary is, especially given it was going to be published anyway. A long pause followed, before he revealed he is paid around €200,000 with a €25,000 car allowance on top. “It’s an extraordinary amount of money,” said Sinn Féin’s John Brady.

4. Days of agents wielding huge power may be numbered

Ms Ní Raghallaigh was questioned by Fianna Fáil TD James O’Connor who raised an issue with the “god like power” of agents. She confirmed that the broadcaster is looking at whether it should continue to deal with agents in the manner it has previously. “This is what we are looking at in relation to whether we continue with agents,” she said citing “five pillars” of review of how the organisation operates.

5. New information about ‘consultancy fees’

Committee members were keen to get to the bottom of how the €75k top-ups were labelled as being for “consultancy fees” on invoices. Paula Mullooly, director of legal affairs in RTÉ, told the committee that it was “highly inappropriate” that the invoices were labelled as consultancy fees, when it has since emerged that they were top-up payments. But the most revealing exchanges were between Sinn Féin TD Imelda Munster and RTÉ's chief financial officer Richard Collins. He described asking Dee Forbes what those invoices for “consultancy fees” were for. The conversation happened after the auditors let their concerns be known. “I can’t remember exactly how she explained it. It was to do with how RTÉ was structured during Covid-19. It was advice that Dee Forbes had received around how RTÉ structured itself and presented itself during Covid-19. I relayed back what I was told.” Collins then said: “She gave what appeared to be a plausible explanation.” And yet, under further questioning from committee chair Brian Stanley, Mr Collins then said: “I was concerned, but I knew that the director general had a close relationship with Noel Kelly.”

6. Presenters will have to declare all their interests

Mr Collins said that the incoming director general Kevin Bakhurst will be drawing up a register of interests that all presenters will have declare. The call for such a move was previously made by Fianna Fáil Senator Malcolm Byrne who said: “I think we are going to need a register of interests for all of those in prominent positions within RTÉ ... I think to rebuild trust, that is going to be essential.”

7. Phrase ‘talent’ to describe top presenters and others may be binned

Chair of the board Siún Ní Raghallaigh, in her opening statement, made a point about the frequent use of the phrase “the talent” to describe presenters like Ryan Tubridy. “Words matter and the term, as it is currently used, reinforces a ‘them and us’ culture in RTÉ. It implies some have greater worth than others. The first step in cultural change is to consign this term to the dustbin.” RTÉ's Education Correspondent and chair of the NUJ Dublin broadcasting branch Emma O’Kelly welcomed this in a tweet. “To us in the Newsroom, the “talent” we’re concerned about includes the young journalists who have left the organisation in recent months, seeing no future within RTÉ.”

8: Some €1.5m has gone through the controversial barter account

Between €1m and €1.5m has gone through the now-controversial barter account over the last ten years, the committee heard. Chief Financial Officer Richard Collins also said it appeared the barter account was used for “expenses that came up in the commercial department that had not been budgeted for.” Fine Gael’s Colm Brophy labelled it a “slush fund” and there were more revelations after this too. Geraldine O’Leary, Head of Commercial in RTÉ, confirmed some of the other items paid for out of the barter account. This included €111,000 to bring clients to the Rugby World Cup, €138,000 for 10-year IRFU tickets and €26,000 to bring people to the Champions League final in 2019. Chair of the RTÉ board Siún Ní Raghallaigh was asked for her reaction and she said it was “outrageous ... expenditure like that should have gone through the procurement system. I believe that that’s now been put in place.” Interestingly, Richard Collins also said RTÉ is “taking advice” as to whether there is a tax liability with regard to the way the barter account was used.

9. ‘Possible’ that Ryan Tubridy knew of concerns when he stepped down

Interim DG Adrian Lynch said “it’s possible” that Ryan Tubridy was told that the payments issue had arisen before he stood down from the Late late Show. Sinn Féin TD John Brady posed the question, asking if someone could potentially have informed Mr Tubridy before he stepped down. “Based on the information from yesterday, it’s possible,” Mr Lynch said.

10. New Late Late Host Patrick Kielty will be paid €250,000 per season

Although it emerged just before the PAC started, and not during the meeting, it was revealed that the new Late Late Show host Patrick Kielty will be paid €250,000 per season. In a statement, Kielty said: “I’m being paid €250,000 per 30 show season. If additional shows are requested by RTÉ, they’ll be paid on a pro-rata basis. I’m also receiving a one-off payment of €20,000 to cover the pre-production and rehearsals from now to September. The contract allows me to submit flight and accommodation expenses, but I’ve waived this. I’ve made it clear to RTÉ that I will be covering my own flights and accommodation costs. I’ve also asked RTÉ to carbon offset my flights.”