THE expansion of the Oireachtas committee system was criticised by several deputies. Committees were being used as a way of paying extra allowances to disaffected Government deputies, the Fianna Fail chief whip, Mr Dermot Ahern, said during a debate on Dail reform.

If there was extra money to pay deputies it should be spread among all deputies by increasing salaries rather than he given by way of allowances to the chairmen and conveners of committees.

The real problem was how to make Ministers more accountable. That could be achieved by having urgent matters discussed in the Dail without delay. Issues that were discussed on every television and radio programme were excluded from discussion in the Dail under present rules.

He also asked the Government to implement a Fianna Fail proposal to have written questions answered during Dail recesses.

Mr Des O Malley (PD, Limerick East) said they had gone from having virtually no Dail committees to having 22, a number which it was impossible for a small party like the PDs to attend, particularly as they usually met while the Dail was in session. Committees were now a way of awarding posts to Government backbenchers.

The Dail was supposed to be one of the three arms of government, along with the executive and, the judiciary. The judiciarys position was protected by the Constitution, but the Dail was constantly being brought under the control of the executive.

Even the office of Ceann Comhairle was seen as "a pawn in the creation of government". It was a dangerous development for a democracy.

Real reform would only come about if the civil service dropped its dedication to secrecy. The secrecy culture was deeply, embedded. It came home to him most forcibly in the note written by a senior civil servant on a file produced at the beef tribunal dealing with export credit to Iraq, where the action of a junior civil servant was commended because he had "successfully confused the deputy in an answer provided in the House".

Ministers could not tell direct lies to the Dail. "But you can mislead to any degree possible short of direct lying," said Mr O'Malley.

He was responding to a motion introduced by the Government chief whip, Mr Jim Higgins, to approve changes in Dail procedure. These include allowing deputies to intervene while others are speaking and the provision of financial assistance for the drafting of up to five private members' bills a year.

Mr Higgins said there was "a lot of vague notions about Oireachtas reform. People who had ideas should put them forward for consideration. He anticipated criticism of the committee system, but he said all deputies were now eligible to attend committee meetings and contribute to proceedings. If they fail to do so they cannot be taken seriously if they come in here to deride what is available to them."

Mr, Tommy Broughan (Lab, Dublin North East) said the Government's package amounted to pills where radical surgery is needed". There was need for about seven Dail committees. The rest should be consigned to the dustbin. The one committee where civil servants were allowed to he questioned in public, the Public Accounts Committee, was not allowed to go on television. The Government should have moved to remedy that.

Mr Austin Deasy (FG, Waterford) said deputies were finding it harder and harder to get answers at question time. There should be at least one hour set aside every day for ordinary members to raise questions. "The present system has led to a fairly despicable practice. When there is an awkward question on the order paper which the Minister does not want to answer he can filibuster on the preceding questions to such, a degree that the awkward question will not he reached." That was a negation of democracy and should not be tolerated.

Under the old system, the question would be reached whether the Minister liked it or not. Questions were also being disallowed for frivolous reasons. The disqualification was carried out in the name of the Ceann Comhairle but he suspected the relevant Minister was to blame. "It did not happen in my time but it is happening now in an ever increasing manner.

Mr Deasy also deplored the lack of debate on the billions of pounds spent by State sponsored bodies. They are responsible to nobody. Their arrogance and their activities time and time again prove that. They have the best of wine, the best of trips and they stay in the best hotels." But a TD could not question their activities at question time. "It is a disgrace that the Dail has given away so much of its powers."

Mr Ger Connolly (FF, Laois Offaly) said deputies would not implement improvements in working facilities because they feared a media backlash. There was a story around that they had drink at half price in the Dail bar. That was untrue. "It is as dear, if not dearer than it is down the country."

They were prepared to pay lawyers up to £2,000 a day but were afraid to give deputies and senators a lp increase in their mileage rate. ,They had their allowances criticised by people in the media, but no one knew what these media people earned. Deputies should be prepared to stand up for themselves and insist on proper services, he said.

Mr Jim Mitchell (FG, Dublin Central) said the changes introduced so far in the name of Dail reform had made the House less assertive, less reported and more boring than ever before. The changes had led to departmental estimates for billions of pounds being nodded through without any proper debate at committee meetings where the Minister responsible often did not attend. "Is it any wonder that there are so many scandals like the Blood Transfusion Service and the beef scandal?" he asked.

The principal function of the Dail was to make the Government accountable to the people and changes should be made to give effect to that. The number of committees should be reduced and they should not meet at the same time as the Dail.

Mr Ted Nealon (FG, Sligo Leitrim) said they could tinker with Dail procedure in the hopes of improving it but the problem had its roots in the multi seat constituencies where deputies were obliged to spend 90 per cent of their time on constituency business if they wanted to be re elected. The introduction of single seat constituencies, retaining proportional representation, should be considered by all parties.

Meanwhile, deputies should pay themselves adequately and each deputy should have the services of a researcher who would do the background work n ceded to help deputies contribute to legislative debate.

Ms Mairin Quill (PD, Cork North Central) said she had witnessed a steady erosion of the position of backbench deputies. If she wanted to query plans for roads she was told she could not do so because it was a function of the National Roads Authority. It spent £200 million a year but was not answerable to the House.