We meet on neutral territory, a redeveloped city centre hotel. This is modern Belfast, the new Belfast. But we are here to talk about old issues, old enmities, the Old Firm. Tomorrow Rangers host Celtic at Ibrox Park and anyone doubting what this ancient fixture means in Ireland today should be at Belfast's ferry port in the morning to observe the extra boat laid on for the north's buoyant Celtic fans. The others are full.

The Rangers supporters will be on a separate vessel, the two sets are still not trusted to travel together peacefully. From that it seems the old tribal image of this football match is still relevant in 2000. It was only in May last year that a 16-year-old Celtic fan, Thomas McFadden, was beaten to death after the Scottish Cup final between the clubs. One assailant wore a Rangers top.

Seeking opinions about the whole picture from one fan from each side risks the charge of being unrepresentative, but it at least gives an insight into what some Rangers and Celtic supporters think. So, sitting in the blue corner in downtown Belfast is Laurence Gorman, 41, from Bangor. A member of the Harbour Bar Rangers Supporters' Club in Belfast, Laurence is a season ticket holder at Ibrox and attended his first Rangers game in 1981. Opposite, in the green corner, is Billy Crawford, 34, from west Belfast, Celtic season ticket holder, shareholder and member of the Anton Rogan Celtic Supporters' Club. Billy's first Celtic game was the 1980 Scottish Cup semi-final. George Best was playing for Hibs.

The two men know each other because they work together, part of the everyday social reality of Belfast life. But they would not make their weekly trip across the Irish Sea together. Unspoken though it is, both know that is out of the question.

The answers both men gave were trophy-orientated and non-sectarian. Neither claimed, though, that sectarianism is not integral to this sporting context. When Laurence goes to Ibrox today he and thousands of others will fall into a category known as "90-minute bigots". Similarly, Billy was prepared to say of Maurice Johnston: "If he died tomorrow no-one would care."

That Johnston's name continues to resonate is striking. On July 10th, 1989, Johnston, having previously agreed to re-join Celtic, signed instead for Rangers. As Billy said, the outrage felt by Celtic fans persists. But then the way Johnston, a Catholic, is regarded by some Rangers fans is such that Laurence said though Johnston once scored the only goal in a game against Celtic, there are Rangers fans for whom the score will always be 0-0.

That's what the Old Firm does to folk. It fascinates, warps, changes the score in your head. Uniquely to football debate could an Old Firm football conversation lead, with illogical logic, to a discussion about who would win a fist fight between Roy Keane and Billy Hutchison of the PUP. The conclusion being: "Roy Keane's tough, but he hasn't stood on the Shankill and told C company of the UDA to fuck off."

But the focus was on the football and it was said there are already critical murmurs about Keane joining Celtic as "an afterthought". But what of tomorrow, what of Martin O'Neill, is his nationality an issue? And what of Dick Advocaat?

Advocaat is under pressure. Rangers have exited the Champions League, sit seven points behind Hibernian, 15 behind Celtic and lost 6-2 at Parkhead in August. Defeat tomorrow at Ibrox and there will be calls for Advocaat's sacking. The Dutchman will find solace in the fact that this would please Billy, who claims that Celtic fans respect Advocaat.

"He's a very good tactician; dogmatic, definitely a disciplinarian. But he is under pressure if Celtic win on Sunday and go on to win the league. And if Rangers finish outside the top two when there are two Champions League places in Scotland next season, then I think he would go at the end of the season. I think he'd resign rather than be told to go. He's that kind of proud individual.

"He's brought in the Dutch influence and I don't know if they have made it click themselves. Over the past 10 years Rangers have had great morale, a great club ethos even with foreigners. Lately it doesn't seem like that."

Laurence agreed. "I think he's a great manager. I think we've been unlucky in the Champions League this past couple of seasons. Rumour has it that there is unrest in the camp but you never know with these things. You'd get the usual fickle supporter calling for his head but I wouldn't."

Although a Rangers fan, Laurence was equally enthusiastic about O'Neill. He also said that O'Neill's Catholic Northern Irishness was not a significant annoyance to Protestant Rangers fans from Ulster. Some would argue he is in a minority there.

"Makes no difference to me," said Laurence. "I used to love watching Martin O'Neill playing for my country. He always gave 100 per cent for the jersey. I've always admired him. None of the lads I travel with see it as a factor. As long as we win I don't care who's manager of Celtic. "But to me he'll be the making of Celtic. He does great things to average players. I think of him as a nice Brian Clough. Celtic are going to have to give him the big cheque book. He'll demand it. If they give it to him, he knows a good player."

For Billy, though, O'Neill's "empathy" with Celtic is important. "It does enhance it. That feeling that he has followed Celtic as a young fella at St Malachy's. But it doesn't matter if he is a bad manager. Liam Brady was Irish. There are people with empathy but O'Neill's got a bit of know-how.

"He's very perceptive and he's bought well so far. It's been a good start but nothing's changed yet. But I think he will be the long-term manager. I know there's always the Jock Stein talk, but if he enjoys it and he wins something every year then he could be here a long time unchallenged."

How long the Old Firm can remain here is another question. Both men agreed with Celtic director Dermot Desmond that "the status quo must change", but with the Atlantic League idea floundering and a British league apparently a fantasy the alternatives are not obvious.

"There's nothing to beat a midweek game in Europe under lights," said Laurence. He was at Rangers' match with Monaco when they went out of the Champions League and said "it hurt more" than the 6-2 Celtic defeat. "To me Europe is the beall and end-all now," he said. "No disrespect to Celtic. Times change and you have to change with the times. You can't be parochial all your life." And what would he say to the rest of Scotland? "See ya. I wouldn't like to lose the Scottish identity but eventually we might."

Billy concurred. "I think the Atlantic League was a fanciful idea. What I'd like to see is Celtic going the whole hog into a European Super League. I wouldn't like to lose the Scottish identity either, but if it's going that way . . . I think we all could take a little dilution of our identity if we're lifting the European Cup."

The dilution of identity has begun anyway, they say. The number of foreigners playing in Glasgow derbies has made them much cleaner than they were once, a process begun by Graeme Souness. He even brought Englishmen into the equation at Ibrox, a development that after Mo Johnston prompted the inevitable religious question. "People would say: `Oh he's Church of England. Well, I hope he's Church of England'," said Laurence.

"People don't discuss it as much as they did. Amoruso becoming captain bothered some, but I don't think it was because he was a Catholic, it's because he was Italian." There was much laughter at the lack of conviction in that statement.

Billy nodded. "Personally I think sectarianism is out the window. Maybe I didn't think that when I was 18 or 19 but you don't, do you? I still like the confrontation in the stadium, the singing and all that but I know from where I sit a lot of that's gone now. You have to get out of your seat. Celtic Park's quiet now.

"I mean, the sectarian thing is still there. There is no point saying it isn't. You hear it on the boat. But there is a big Scottish element to it. You hear more republican songs from them. They think they have to prove themselves. Scottish people don't know the political scenario. They equate everything that's green and white with being republican or nationalist."

Finally, a forecast. "I think we'll get at least a draw," is evidence of Celtic confidence.

"We're actually concerned about not coming second," shows the Rangers anxiety.

Two genuine football answers. Maybe the game does matter most. Then they'll get back on the boat.