Former Fianna Fáil TD Mr Liam Lawlor was the first person to tell Mr Frank Dunlop that money would have to be paid to councillors in return for their votes, Mr Dunlop has told the Flood tribunal.
Mr Dunlop said this occurred in 1990, around the time he consciously decided to participate in a "system" for bribing councillors. The two men had a number of discussions about the system and what was required to operate it.
Mr Lawlor had an interest in the lands in Carrickmines the tribunal is currently investigating, yet voted against proposals that would have made it easier to rezone them, Mr Dunlop also told the tribunal yesterday.
He said the businessman Mr James Kennedy paid him £25,000 to give to councillors supporting the rezoning of the land in 1991, at a meeting in the latter's premises on Westmoreland Street. The cash was stored in Ulster Bank wrappers. He held onto the money for a while before using it to pay councillors.
At their meetings, Mr Kennedy told Mr Dunlop he owned the Carrickmines lands and that Mr Lawlor also had an interest in them. He said Mr Lawlor's interest had been organised on his (Mr Kennedy's) advice and was registered in Liechtenstein.
However, in May 1991, Mr Dunlop said he had a "serious exchange of views" with Mr Kennedy and, separately, with Mr Lawlor after Mr Lawlor voted against the Fianna Fáil whip on a motion concerning Carrickmines.
Councillors considered various options for the public display of the draft development plan before voting by 21 to 19 to support the manager's proposal that the 1983 development plan be unchanged during the display. This option, supported by Mr Lawlor, meant the zoning of the Carrickmines Valley was left unaltered.
However, Mr Lawlor said the vote "didn't have any relevance," according to the witness. Mr Dunlop shouldn't "worry his head at all" and there would be an opportunity to rezone the land after the display.
The witness pointed out that Mr Lawlor was the only Fianna Fáil councillor to support the motion. (In fact, Ms Betty Coffey also voted for the motion.) He pointed out that if Mr Lawlor had voted the other way, the motion would have been tied and the Fianna Fáil chairman would have had the casting vote. Mr Lawlor had never given a satisfactory explanation of the way he voted, he said.
It was in this context that Mr Kennedy had revealed Mr Lawlor's involvement in the land, he said. Some days after the vote, Mr Kennedy expressed himself "very forcibly" and "in a voluble way" along the lines of "I wouldn't mind but he has an interest in the land . . ." Mr Dunlop said he was speaking to Fianna Fáil councillors at this time on an almost daily basis. He listed those he was in contact with as Cllrs Sean Gilbride, Jack Larkin, Cyril Gallagher, Don Lydon, Tony Fox and Colm McGrath of Fianna Fáil, as well as Cllrs Tom Hand and Liam Cosgrave of Fine Gael.
He said Mr Lawlor's approach was that Mr Dunlop was dealing with the other Fianna Fáil councillors and his own support was not being solicited. "He wasn't telling me what to do but he was participating in what I was doing."
Asked if this involved giving councillors money, he said Mr Lawlor said he recognised a system was in place and money was needed to operate it.
The two men recognised that in particular instances, money would have to paid over to get motions signed in advance of rezoning motions, and in retrospect, after the votes had taken place.
His discussions with Mr Kennedy were "relatively simple. He said: 'I want the land rezoned, I know it will cost money, I've dealt with matters like this before and I've already dealt with Tom Hand before - now get on with it!'"
Mr Dunlop told Mr Kennedy that a lot of local councillors were expressing "grave reservations" about the rezoning. A lot of pressure was being applied by a variety of residents' and conservation groups. The local elections were in the offing and councillors were "positioning themselves".
Mr Dunlop said he met solicitor Mr John Caldwell on a number of occasions with Mr Kennedy. Mr Caldwell appeared to act in a "support capacity" for Mr Kennedy but had no interest in detail or in the elected representatives.
