College fees may have to be re-introduced for those who can afford them,according to the Minister for Education, Noel Dempsey. The Minister made his comments in the course of an interview with Sean Flynn, Education Editor.

Q. Your have put a great deal of emphasis on the need for wider access to third-level and you have promised a review. What is happening?

A. My officials are having a look at the whole student support system. This is against a background where we are not going to see very significant increases in education expenditure and in public spending generally.

We are spending about €350 million per year on students support - about €175 million of this is for free fees. Now I am not satisfied that this is helping to widen access, I have asked my officials to look at the whole higher-education grant scheme - maintenance grants - with a view to helping people who cannot afford to go to third level.

There is no big pot of money out there to increase grants, therefore I may be in a position at the end of this process where I say the current system has not been effective in getting students from disadvantaged backgrounds into third level and we need to spend the student supports more effectively. We are talking about doing this over the next two- or three-month period, because any decision we make will need to be in place well before the next academic year.

Q. What is your reaction to figures which show, for example, that nine of the top 10 feeder schools for UCD are fee-paying.

A. I read the article last Tuesday and my reaction is this: if you have a situation where certain schools select their students and where students come from a background where their parents are wealthy, it is inevitable most will end up in college.

Some of the reaction to the figures has been nonsense. Starting a whole debate now about rewarding teachers on the basis of results is a nonsense. I don't disagree with the need for evaluation.

I don't disagree with the need to raise standards and so on, but talking about paying teachers for the amount of honours they secure is a nonsense for an education service.

Q. Were you appalled by the figures. Isn't it disgraceful that students from certain areas of Dublin have little chance of securing a place in UCD or TCD while others just glide through?

A. I have put the whole question of college access at the top of my agenda since I took office. When the Leaving Cert results came out last month, rather than talk about them, I spoke about the inequality in the system.

Let me talk about my own background. I come from a family of 12. We were not particularly well off. I was one of only two that got to third level as we were growing up. There were 11 in my father's familyand none of them got a third-level education. This has been going on a long time and we are all appalled by it. Then, something blows up about it and we all react - before reverting back and getting comfortable about it again.

Q. To what extent are the universities themselves to blame here?

A. I think in the past it would have been fair to criticise the elitism of the universities. I don't think that would be fair now. A lot of progress has been made, although there is much more to do. Essentially, this is an issue for government. People ask you what you are going to do about it, but they don't want to hear about it when you say you need to get back to the level of spending in primary-school education, first and foremost. It can be frustrating to try and deal with the complexity of the problem in a radio soundbite or whatever.

Q. Isn' t part of the answer to invest much more heavily in primary education?

A. We spend twice as much per capita on third-level students as those at primary level. To a certain extent, you have to acknowledge that the back-up costs at third level - research, labs etc - are very expensive. But there is an inequity there and you have to ask the question whether the expenditure is skewed in the right way, particularly when you look at the make-up of the cohort of people who go to university.

Q. So you seem to pointing towards radical action. But you are not saying what this might be.

A. Well, I have indicated one particular area which we need to look at, which is the short-term one of students supports and fees... the one which is under my control. Longer term, we need to start at primary level, so there could be some adjustments in funding.

Q. What about the re-introduction of fees? There was a great deal of angry reaction over the summer when some reports hinted at their return. Can you given an assurance to parents and to students that fees will not return?

A. I am not going to say it is not going to happen. The reaction that we saw over the summer was based on the belief that fees would be re-introduced across the board. That certainly would not be my intention. I can state that categorically. But if I look at the €175 million that is paid out by the State in tuition fees (to the colleges) for everybody that goes to third-level, I have to ask if people on my salary - and people who are on even higher salaries - should be getting the benefit of this.

I am raising important questions. If I come to the conclusion that people on my income level should not get this (free fees), what would I do with the money that the State would save?

The route I would like to go is to put proper levels of maintenance, put proper grants in, put proper means-testing in, so that people who need this money, need this support, can get it.

This has nothing to do with Exchequer savings and it is important to stress this. I am not interested in engaging in any exercise where I cut back on student supports. I want these to remain at the level they are at or to increase reasonably.

What I am talking about is ensuring that the €350 million in student supports is paid out in such a way that those who deserve it actually get it - those who have not had the opportunity to get to third-level get that opportunity.

Q. There are huge political risks here. The abolition of fees in 1995 was seen as a gift to the middle classes. Is it not very difficult to take back something like free fees which many parents now take for granted?

A. It depends very much on how it is done. There are some middle-class people who do not qualify for maintenance grants and they would not be among the rich of Ireland. But I can't do anything to help these people at the moment. But if there is a new pot of money there, I can divert money to those with real needs. I am not there to penalise the middle classes, but I think the wealthy should be able to meet their own expenses.