NEWS filtered through to Brendan Howlin's office that he was being berated by Pat Kenny on his radio show for failing to give a promised interview about his role in the hepatitis C scandal when Minister for Health. Word arrived at RTE that the Minister for the Environment was fuming and was en route to the studio to face his challenger.
In studio, Kenny was joined by Niamh Cosgrave, a mother of three who contracted hepatitis C from the Anti D blood product.
She recalled her "abominable" treatment by those who screened her for the disease. They questioned her about her sexual history, her access to needles and whether she had any tattoos.
Then it was the Minister's turn. He denied being "miffed at Pat Kenny but felt his introductory remarks were unfair. He then set about defending his record as health minister. But by the end of the battle his words were to return to haunt him.
Brendan Howlin: The big issue, that was supposed to have been my major mistake, was not having the tribunal of inquiry from the beginning, and I have dealt with that. The criticism of me other than that was in relation to counselling, that we didn't put independent counselling in early enough.
Pat Kenny: Yes. The women objected to going to counsellors appointed by the very people that infected them.
Howlin: The problem about it is that we had to find people who knew something about hepatitis C and they were largely in the . . .
Kenny: But do you accept that was wrong?
Howlin: Yes, well, can I say two things. We had independent counsellors in Dublin and Cork. When Positive Action first said it to me was May of 1994 the group of people who were determined to be positive were only emerging around this time. Niamh Cosgrave: The thing about independent counsellors. I think the advice you were getting at the time, Minister, was absolutely deplorable and you should have seen that for what it was. That you needed a counsellor who knew about hepatitis C, that's bull. All you needed was a counsellor who knew how to deal with the trauma of life threatening situations. It could have been a car crash, whatever. That's what you needed to know on that.
Now before the programme finishes, I really would like to mention aggravated damages. The history in Ireland shows that aggravated damages aren't that much, so it's not going to break the bank.
I'm tired of the blood bank and the Minister saying, `we're sorry, we're sorry.' Isn't it time now to show us that you're sorry and maybe investigate retrospectively paying both those women who have been both through the tribunal and those who are about to go through the tribunal...
Kenny: In other words, rather than simply compensatory damages, aggravated damages.
Cosgrave: Aggravated damages and it's not going to break the bank.
Howlin: I will certainly deal with that. But the other point in relation to the counselling. I think people wanted to know what their prognosis was. We couldn't send people to counsellors saying `I don't know anything about...'
Cosgrave: But the counsellor could have dealt with that whole trauma of not knowing. I really refute that. I know women seeing a counsellor who knows next to nothing about hepatitis C but knows all about the trauma of dealing with life threatening situations.
Howlin: But that was the advice I got.
Cosgrave: But my point was, couldn't you have questioned the advice you were getting at the time, the advice you got from the BTSB? I think I would have copped straight away that the advice I was getting would have been protectionary and evasive, protecting themselves even from you, Minister.
Maybe there was time then to send independent people in...
Howlin: We did in two areas. We put in hepatology nurses into the hospitals and they did counselling. We did hire extra counsellors into the BTSB to do the volumes.
Kenny: But Minister, isn't it the fact that it wasn't ideal that it wasn't the right thing to do in retrospect? What else were you criticised on?
Howlin: If we take the aggravated damages question posed first because I think she has made a very compelling case . . . All of us are going to have to reflect and I think there is a very clear set of conclusions in front of us - very clearly spelled out who is responsible - and the State has to take its share of the responsibility.
Cosgrave: Have you talked to the women about that?
Howlin: I think the Government as a whole will have to talk about this.
Cosgrave: Will we have a decision before the election?
Howlin: Well, I don't think this should rely on elections or no elections.
Cosgrave: Well I think this just might be. I'm a political animal myself and I know how these decisions are reached at and I would like a decision before an election.
Howlin: In terms of aggravated damages, obviously it will be a call for the Minister for Health and the Government ultimately, but I will certainly bring back what you said to me.
Kenny: The question of the DPP and the file going to the DPP. There is some confusion among the victims this morning that the evidence in the tribunal will in some way fudge a prosecution. Is that not so?
Howlin: The advice I have is no.
That it is not prosecutable on the basis of the document itself.
Kenny: That all the evidence given can once again be given in a prosecution without any difficulty.
Howlin: Absolutely. I think it is the path to a prosecution as opposed to a body of evidence, but I understand that the formulation of a case is quite different from the establishment of fact.
Kenny: Two questions. Other ministers of health were in office over the period. Do you resent that you got hammered, if you like, on this one?
Howlin: Somebody said to me that it is rather like asking the fire brigade to account for the fire. I was the minister who was informed that we had a problem and I took a whole series of actions that I have now accounted for.
Kenny: But what regrets do you have about the manner of your firefighting?
Cosgrave: You could have got another engine.
Howlin: I fully accept all that was in the report. But it is always easy to read the full book and say I would have done something different had I known the end result when I read the first chapter.
Cosgrave: But do you remember when all this happened in the late 1980s with the haemophiliacs, Minister? I remember you standing in the Dail and saying "This is the best blood bank in the world and we have every reason to be confident in it.' I remember taking an interest knowing that I was a blood donor and that I would need AntiD maybe in the future. Maybe that was the time.
You know, we need to stop with this ostrich head in the sand attitude to everything and get out there and find the problems.
Howlin: I'm not a judge of blood banks and I don't know whether it is the best in the world or not.
Cosgrave: But you said it was.
Howlin: Independent evaluation, medical opinion that I had, said that it was.