The Vincent Browne Interview: Liz McManus feigned annoyance two years ago: Democratic Left had been promised great sex if they got into bed with the Labour Party and it hadn't happened.
But the reality is the marriage has been great for her. She has blossomed into a major political figure, dominating the debate on the major issue in current politics: health.
If Labour is back in government in any arrangement after the election it is very likely she will be minister for health.
She is also the most passionate political voice in the anti-referendum campaign and it was no surprise that it was she who was targeted for the first slur in the campaign - the allegation by her constituency colleague, Dick Roche, in the Dáil on Wednesday that she was "pro-abortion".
She was born in Montreal in 1947. Her first language was French. She later lived in France, and the Netherlands, before her family settled in Ireland.
She went to UCD and studied architecture and was part of "the gentle revolution" - sit-ins and demonstrations with Ruairí Quinn and others in the late 1960s.
After qualifying as an architect, she worked in Derry with Liam McCormick, a renowned church architect, and was in Derry for the Battle of the Bogside in August 1969. She married her boyfriend from college, John McManus, in 1971, and they moved to Galway for two years. She was a homemaker for 25 years and her first job after having children was as a TD when she was elected to the Dáil in 1992. They have four children, three boys and one girl.
She was a member of the Irish Labour Party in the 1960s, and joined the Northern Ireland Labour Party when she lived in Derry - Eamon McCann and Nell McCafferty were members of the party at the time. She was one of those who walked out of the Labour Party conference in 1973 in protest over Labour going into coalition with Fine Gael. She joined the Workers' Party in 1975, and left with Proinsias de Rossa et al in 1991 to form Democratic Left. The merger with Labour occurred in 1998.
Her father was Dr. T. G. O'Driscoll, who was the outstanding director general of Bord Failte from 1958 to 1968, the time when the tourist industry in Ireland became a serious business. Her mother was a Northern Ireland Unitarian. Unitarianism, Liz McManus says, is "a cherry form of Presbyterianism".
She feels she gained a lot as a product of a "mixed marriage" for it taught her tolerance and respect for diverse traditions from an early age.
VB: The Labour Party conference last year voted in favour of a pro-choice position on abortion. Is that the party's official line now?
LMcM: I have difficulty with all these terms. The reality is, at one level, everybody in Ireland supports the woman's right to choose because nobody is stopping women exercising their right; it's just that women have to exercise the right in Britain. So, I actually don't accept any of these labels but clearly there is a difference between the term "right to choose" and being "pro-abortion".
I think that most people in the Labour Party - probably everybody in the Labour Party - would prefer it if we concentrated our time on reducing the level of Irish abortions, which is high, and supporting women in terms of preventative measures in terms of support, healthcare and all the rest of it.
But, ultimately, even with counselling and all the things that go with it, if a woman decides that for her the way out of her dilemma is to have an abortion, well then we have to respect that and we have to accept that.
Otherwise, you are saying that she has no right to make that decision; that it has to be judges or priests or politicians that make that decision for her.
VB: Would you wish that there were a regime in Ireland whereby women could have abortions here if they chose to, subject to some restrictions?
LMcM: Well, I must say I am not comfortable with the idea that the Irish Constitution doesn't allow for rape victims or the victims of incest (to have an abortion here). I think it is immature of society if we continue to fool ourselves that there isn't such a thing as Irish abortion: there is and it's exercised by 19 women every day who aren't getting proper healthcare, who aren't getting proper counselling before they make the decision and certainly aren't getting proper aftercare. They are travelling in secret.
One of the most striking factors that brought home to me the immaturity of our debate was that the most important person in this whole issue - the woman who has had an abortion - was never heard during our hearings by the All- Party Committee on the Constitution. Until we hear those voices, until those young women feel comfortable enough and safe enough (to speak out), we are never going to be able to have a real debate about this.
VB: What's so bad about the Irish people deciding what regime we should have on abortion, instead of this being decided by politicians or judges, or members of the medical profession?
LMcM: This is actually not about the right to life of the unborn; this is about the right to life of the Government. This is about a process of keeping the Independents on side and the Irish people are at the end of that process.
It was very interesting at the hearings (of the All- Party Committee on the Constitution) to find that even pro-life people - and I have very strong respect for people from the pro-life side - didn't have a wording (for a constitutional amendment).
So Fianna Fáil decided: okay, we can't think of a better wording so we are going to go resurrect the 1992 (proposed amendment), send it out in new clothes and, hopefully, enough people will buy this idea that this is the middle ground
My own advice is let's vote No and let's get this amendment which is dangerous to women and dangerous to the Constitution, let's get it out of the way.
That doesn't mean that's the end of it; it means that we legislate in line of the X case. Let's try to reduce the level of abortion; try to understand what is happening where our young people are getting into such difficulties.
VB: The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of the Irish people don't want a situation here where abortion services are even relatively freely available and there is an apprehension that if what is called the "suicide loophole" isn't closed that that loophole will be used to introduce abortion here at a level which most people would be very uncomfortable with.
LMcM: Well, I would refute that absolutely and I think this is scare-mongering and I think the Taoiseach is guilty of scare-mongering.
Essentially, what Fianna Fáil is saying is we don't trust women, we don't believe women and, therefore, we are not going to even attempt to deal with what is a real issue, which is suicide in pregnancy.
I presented, during the committee stage (of the Amendment Bill) evidence about women who committed suicide in pregnancy. Nobody can disregard this issue and pretend that it doesn't happen.
VB: But did they commit suicide because they were pregnant?
LMcM: In the C case the most eminent child psychiatrist went into court, explained very clearly why he had diagnosed a risk of suicide.
An eminent judge (Hugh Geoghan, now on the Supreme Court) listened to the evidence and said: I am satisfied that there is a real diagnosis here by a doctor who is convinced there is a risk of suicide and because the "C" case is allowed to have an abortion in Ireland, consequent to the Supreme Court decision in the "X" case, she's allowed to travel and the health board can send her.
What Fianna Fáil is saying essentially is: we don't trust women, we don't believe women. The mask is slipping.
It is actually about controlling women and refusing to recognise that there is such a thing as a young woman or a young girl as there was in the "X" case and "C" case to whom such terrible things were done that the pregnancy was causing them to be so desperate that they were suicidal.
I mean to deny that reality, when all we know about what has happened in Irish society, with all we know about child sex abuse, there's really, there's another agenda going on.
You cannot ignore that kind of harsh truth.
VB: What difference does this make in practice since, in reality, any woman who wants an abortion goes to England to have it anyway. So, what's all this about, why get upset about it?
LMcM: It does matter. Des O'Malley expressed why it matters very well in a speech he made in 1992 and it is ironic that the Progressive Democrats are now taking a very different line. He said there could be a case in the future, say of a young girl brutally raped, unable to travel because she is too badly injured or anorexic. And because of what was then proposed, and is now proposed, the Supreme Court would find it had its hands tied and could not authorise a termination here.
What would happen then. We all know that something like this will emerge in some shape or form in the future.
Or a woman is haemorrhaging; she is in Letterkenny Hospital; there is no maternity unit, it's not in an approved place; the doctor is a conscientious objector; he doesn't give her the termination she needs; she dies. Or he does do the termination she needs and he then faces 12 years in jail.
VB: But abortion would be permitted in those circumstances?
LMcM: No, no, only in approved places (under the proposed Amendment Bill). Letterkenny Hospital, as far as I know, doesn't have a maternity unit. So it wouldn't be an approved place. Even though she has a legal entitlement to it, because she is in the wrong place at the wrong time, she wouldn't get it or if he, i.e. the male doctor, ethically felt bound to treat her, he could end up in court facing 12 years in jail.
VB: Pat Rabbitte has said that in the event of Labour going into government with Fianna Fáil in the next election, he would so disapprove of that happening that he would refuse to serve in such an administration. Is that your position?
LMcM It's Pat Rabbitte's position. I think Fianna Fáil have been in government far too long; since 1987 apart from 2½ years. I think it's unhealthy for democracy to have a party dominating Irish politics. I want to see Fianna Fáil out. I want to be able to help form an alternative government. Obviously we would be forming a government with Fine Gael, maybe with Independents, maybe with the Greens, That would be my goal and my objective. Incidentally, I don't have any expectations with regard to being minister.
VB: Are you disappointed that the merger of Democratic Left with the Labour Party hasn't resulted in more support for the Labour Party as represented in the opinion polls?
LMcM: I don't think it's been fully put to the test yet. The general election will be the test.
VB: Ruairí Quinn's leadership has been less than enthralling it would seem from the opinion polls. Are you entirely satisfied with him as leader?
LMcM: Well, I don't think anybody else could have pulled off the merger (with Democratic Left), which has been good for the party. I think anybody would recognise that there is a much stronger line-up and sense of purpose in the Labour Party since the merger and I think that has been very progressive and helpful and couldn't have happened under any other leadership.
Ruairí has been able to knit the organisation together and I think that's one of his great strengths. I think if he were, for example, Taoiseach, he would be very good at keeping a coalition together. I wouldn't underestimate him, I think he's actually quite a modest person and maybe in politics that's not necessarily the best asset, but he actually is a decent man, an honest man who has had loads of experience and is very committed to politics.
VB: How do you feel about the idea that a vote for Labour is a vote for Michael Noonan as Taoiseach?
LMcM: Well, it might, believe it or not, be a vote for Ruairí Quinn as Taoiseach.
VB: But the likelihood is that it is going to be a vote for Michael Noonan as Taoiseach.
LMcM: I don't accept that. I think there's reason to believe that at the end of the day we can actually become the second biggest party in this country.
VB: Do you think Fine Gael will do that badly?
LMcM: Oh no, I think we'll just do very well.
VB: How many of the seats do you think you'll get?
LMcM: I would say probably the late-20s.
I am not very good at this sort of forecasting. I'm the one that said the Beatles would never make it, you know.