In his first major interview since becoming Archbishop of Dublin, Dr Diarmuid Martin talks to Patsy McGarry, Religious Affairs Correspondent, about the pressure to conform, the decline in vocations, women priests, the devastating effect of the sex abuse scandals, and the future of the Catholic Church.
Dublin's new archbishop, Dr Diarmuid Martin, is a man of considerable energy and this, along with a direct style, appears to have already ruffled some in the archdiocese. "Any new person will meet a lot of resistance," he responds. He says he has been made feel "very, very welcome" in church administrative circles and the archdiocese in general. However, there are "pressures to conform" which do not make it easy for him to be himself, as he is not conflictual by nature, he says.
"I think people are finding it hard to understand the things I want to do, and that I want it 'done yesterday'," he says. This might be because he is bad at explaining and "instinctive, rather than a manager" working to some strategic vision, he adds. As for his hectic pace, he says he has operated this way in every post he has held. It amuses him that people have speculated about his ability to continue at this level. "They don't know me. I have always worked with enthusiasm."
He does not come across as a man who would be overly cautious and yet, when pressed on domestic political issues, he will not commit.
For instance, he will not give a view on the citizenship referendum or say how he believes people should vote. Nor will he say how he will vote himself.
He emphasises the importance of the Constitution as an expression of fundamental values, and insists that it must not be tampered with lightly. But the debate is a matter for politicians and the media, he says.
On the release of the killers of Det Garda Jerry McCabe? He says he is not familiar with the case, having been out of the country for so long, and feels unable to comment.
It seems clear he wants to avoid the "Rome rule" style of some predecessors when it comes to politics. But he has views on the preamble to the draft EU Constitution. "A de facto recognition [in the preamble] of the contribution of Christianity to the heritage of Europe is nothing more than recognition of that fact."
He is forthright about politicians and others "whose public decisions and convictions are not in line with the teaching of the church". It is "not authentic [for them] to come to Communion within the church", he says. However, he is concerned the altar should not become a battleground, and besides, the priest giving out Communion "may not know the individuals's state of mind". So he would prefer the matter be dealt with by church authorities speaking to the person concerned.
He is not in favour of inter-church Communion, as highlighted when the President, Mrs McAleese, took part in a Church of Ireland Eucharist service at Dublin's Christ Church Cathedral in 1997. "If full unity doesn't exist, I don't think it is the way forward . . . it doesn't heal the pain of disunity by trying to cover up the pain," he says.
On the sex abuse scandals, which Cardinal Connell had said "devastated" his period as archbishop, Dr Martin is not tardy with detail.
The Dublin archdiocese has, to date, paid €2.5 million in compensation settlements with 38 victims of clerical child sex abuse; an additional €1 million has been spent in legal costs. There are 41 other cases pending.
Since 1954, 59 priest of the Dublin archdiocese have had allegations of abuse made against them. That figure includes false allegations and involves the widest criteria of what constitutes abuse. Of the 59, seven have been convicted in the courts, to date, while 18 are deceased.
In three instances, allegations had been made where it had not been possible for gardaí or diocesan authorities to identify the priest concerned. Putting the figures in context, he points out that since 1954, 1,450 priests have served in Dublin.
He has met a substantial number of abused people since he returned and, as a result, is particularly concerned that healing should be placed much more at the centre of the church's reaction. Whatever resources in Dublin were necessary would be made available.
He feels many people did not fully realise how the issue had affected Cardinal Connell. "Somehow I don't think people understand how much he suffered in himself. He was horrified by the type of accusations he had to face and was very, very shattered by it."
Dr Martin has taken over an archdiocese with 1.08 million Catholics, approximately a quarter of Catholics in Ireland. As well as Dublin city and county, it includes parishes in counties Kildare, Laois, Wicklow, and Wexford, many of which he has visited and where, he says, the pastoral situation is quite different, with needs that have to be addressed in a special way.
Just one priest will be ordained in the archdiocese this year. None will be ordained next year. There are approximately 700 priests in Dublin's 200 parishes, and they are mainly middle-aged and older (the average age of priests in Ireland is 62-63).
Currently, 13 seminarians from Dublin are studying in Maynooth. This represents about a quarter of all seminarians there. So far this year, two new candidates for the priesthood have been accepted in Dublin, with more being considered.
He supports the introduction of the diaconate in Ireland, whereby laymen would be trained and ordained to perform most of the functions of a priest, apart from celebrating the Eucharist. The Irish Bishops Conference has requested permission from Rome to introduce the diaconate.
The deacons could officiate at baptisms, receive funeral remains and give bereavement counselling. As with priests, they could only be men, he says.
He does not believe there should be women priests. There is "no way" in which he could see women celebrating the Eucharist. However, he plans to ensure that women would be involved in strong leadership positions at local and diocesan level.
It is hardly a surprise that as Archbishop of Dublin he should hold views which reflect precisely those of Rome. What is a surprise is the depth of his own personal conviction on this and other such issues. Jesus, he recalls, was surrounded during his ministry by women, to the point where it caused scandal, yet he ordained only men.
He is aware of the difficulty his position on women priests may cause. People have told him how they liked his vision of Church but that, until he comes around to accepting the ordination of women, they could not find anything else he says credible. But that is his belief.
Similarly with celibacy. Asked whether he is "soft" on the issue, he says celibacy is "extremely demanding, but possible". A huge number of priests live such a life fully and authentically, he says, and he believes this fact is not given sufficient recognition, including by the media. Celibacy is "an extremely important counter-witness at a time when there is huge confusion about sexual responsibility".
It is "very difficult to be a good priest today", he says. Repeatedly in the interview he praises his priests and expresses concern for the isolation some may feel. "They are out there, day in day out, in parts of the city many never go to; happy, enthusiastic and good."
He intends to appoint a specific vicar for priests - a person whose job would be "to provide the best possible support [for them]". Priests "should not be treated as entities to be shifted around like foot soldiers . . . the personal, human situation should be taken into account".
Asked about the perception that a disproportionate number of priests are gay, he says he would in no way deny a proportion of priests are gay. They too have to live a celibate life, but he hopes they also come to terms with their sexuality rather than repressing it. That is healthier, he says.
He says, "If the priesthood attracted in a disproportionate way any group in society, you would have to ask why." No particular sub-culture should become dominant in the priesthood, he says.It was not the preserve of any group. Except men? "Except men," he agrees.
On the issue of homosexuality generally, he says he is "aware of the hurt felt by gay men and lesbian women regarding some formulations of church teaching".
Terms such as "evil", as homosexual practice was described in a Vatican document last year, are "inordinately offensive," he says. He wonders whether words such as "wrong" or "in error" might have been used instead, when translating the document into English. He would "welcome dialogue with Catholic gay men and lesbian women".
Agreeing he accepted the appointment because of his vow of obedience, he dismissed speculation he will be in Dublin only for a short time. "With this job comes a tomb," he says. And while he misses friends in Rome, and their families, he enjoys the work he is doing now. He feels affection for Dublin, particularly the solidarity of inner city communities and Dublin humour, which breaks out in his conversation occasionally, spontaneously and maybe not always appropriately, he feels.
The best piece of advice he has received since becoming archbishop is that "administration in the diocese of Dublin is not the job of the archbishop". He enjoys getting out and about "seeing what's happening on the streets", as he did in Rome for years. He does not intend to become a CEO, and is investigating how he might be freed of administrative tasks.
He believes the principal role of a bishop is to preach the gospel and his aim is to foster and develop communities of faith, which would not necessarily be based on territory. Religious adherence in Dublin is "very high" as is attendance at daily Mass "by international standards". But there has been "a dramatic drop" in Sunday Mass attendance in some areas. He warns that more and more young people are becoming "unchurched" with the residual religious culture getting lower. Parishes have to be "much more hands-on" in the building of small Christian communities, with the parish itself "a community of communities".
Archbishop's House, Clonliffe College and the Mater Dei Institute (which he feels needs adequate premises) are to find roles in faith formation as the diocese needs a good pastoral resource centre and a liturgical resource centre, he says. He feels there is "an appalling lack of community singing at Masses", particularly when compared with the Continent where Masses "reverberated with singing".
Similarly with music, where, despite an extraordinary tradition of church music, he has experienced "some rather banal contributions". Liturgy should be "meaningful, convey a sense of mystery, accompanied by a sense of beauty".
He says that church property which is not needed could be sold to fund renovation programmes, and where Clonliffe property was concerned, some money raised would have to go to the formation of priests, as it had been a seminary.
His own personal demands are "not great" and he recalls a diocese in the US where a bishop lived in the pastoral resource centre.
Currently he is living in quarters at Clonliffe, but plans to move into the two-roomed living accommodation at Archbishop's House.
The priority he is giving evangelisation (spreading the gospel message) would determine when he appoints new auxiliary bishops in Dublin.
He is in no hurry to fill current vacancies, preferring to wait and see more clearly how restructuring for more efficient evangelisation works out before making such personnel decisions.
In brief...
On the referendum on citizenship He says the debate is a matter for politicians and the media
On Communion It is "not authentic" for those whose public decisions and convictions are not in line with the teaching of the church to come to Communion
On sex abuse scandals Healing should be placed at the centre of the church's reaction to the matter
On the fall-off in vocations He supports the introduction of the diaconate whereby laymen would be ordained deacons and perform most of the functions of a priest, apart from celebrating the Eucharist
On women priests There is "no way" he can see women celebrating the Eucharist
On celibacy "It's an extremely important counter-witness at a time when there is huge confusion about sexual responsibility"
On priests "They should not be treated as entities to be shifted around like foot soldiers"
On gay priests "No particular sub-culture should become dominant in the priesthood"
On homosexuality Terms such as 'evil' are inordinately offensive, he says. Maybe words such as 'wrong' or 'error' could be used instead. He would welcome dialogue with Catholic homosexuals
On Mass attendances More young people are becoming 'unchurched'. Parishes need to be more 'hands on'
On his priority He plans restructuring for more efficient spreading of the gospel message. This would dictate the appointment of new auxiliary bishops