As an experienced accountant, Mr Roger Copsey would not describe the intricate patchwork linking the various companies in the Murphy Group as labyrinthine, he told the Flood tribunal.
He was no stranger to organisations with a diversity of overlapping interests, he said in response to just such a suggestion from Mr Des O'Neill SC, for the tribunal. Mr Copsey was recalling the various meetings in 1988 when he played a pivotal role in directing Mr Joseph Murphy snr's strategy to win back control of his companies on both sides of the Irish Sea.
In June 1988 Mr Copsey and Mr Murphy snr's close financial adviser, Mr Edgar Wadley, attended a meeting of the Murphy Trust Council and advised the Murphys that "it was best that a professional firm of trustees" be appointed.
This role was vested in Sovereign Management, the Guernsey-based subsidiary of Credit Suisse.
Allied to this a strategy of tight controls was introduced by the board of the operating company, JMSE, that effectively rode shotgun over the group's affairs in two key management areas, contracts and finance.
In matters relating to finance, Mr Copsey as financial director of JMSE was to have the last word, but when it came to assessing the worth of a particular contract, the responsibility lay with either Mr Murphy snr or Mr James Gogarty.
Mr Copsey's involvement with the Murphy land companies was peripheral, he told the tribunal.
The sale of Murphy lands by the auctioneers Duffy, Mangan & Butler involved him only in respect of the tax implications.
As regards the £30,000 payment to Mr Ray Burke, Mr Gogarty had said a political donation was to be made, and asked him to arrange it: "Denis McArdle [solicitor for the land companies] has a note of me phoning him. I accept I called him."
It was not unusual to clear some matters with Mr McArdle. "Jim would have asked. I would have advised him that McArdle was holding company money from previous sales. Mr Gogarty, in the event, instructed McArdle not to transfer the money to JMSE."
His account was explicit, similar in detail to the evidence given by the previous witness, Mr Murphy jnr. He, too, was adamant that the overriding concern of Mr James Gogarty was the prospect of his pension. Mr Gogarty's reluctance to swear an affidavit in response to Mr Liam Conroy, the former JMSE chief executive "contributed to strain between him and myself", he told Mr O'Neill.
Neither was he impressed by Mr Gogarty's allegations that a slush fund existed: "I saw no evidence or verification of such a fund. And at no time did he mention money paid to George Redmond."
Mr Copsey's lack of curiosity, even with hindsight, was perhaps the most remarkable feature of his testimony. Jim Gogarty wanted cash, he recalled - £30,000. It was election time and "the party" needed to put up posters and had other expenses: "I don't remember which party - or Ray Burke being mentioned."
The fact that he was an English chartered accountant and therefore might possess only a passing interest in Irish politics was no explanation of this lack of curiosity. After all, Mr Copsey had been practising in Ireland for more than two decades, as he informed the tribunal. He must have at least some grasp of the type of "fever" generated at election time.
For any financial director, however removed from politics, not to have questioned the political susceptibilities and motivations of any executive initiating a political donation on such a scale would seem, at least, to be remarkable.