LEADERS IN WAITING: With the General Election expected to be called within weeks, Mary Harney, the leader of the Progressive Democrats, talks to Denis Coghlan, Chief Political Correspondent, in the third in a series of interviews with the main party leaders.
The Progressive Democrats will advocate a reduction in the rate of increase of Government spending in its election manifesto. The Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Ms Harney, defends her record and expects a good election result.
Involvement by the Office of Public Works in managing the Stadium Ireland project would be a vital element of any future development on the Abbotstown site. "Ideally, I would like to see an official from the OPW being appointed as chief executive."
In the wake of the protracted controversy about the cost of projects; the nature of contracts signed by Campus Stadium Ireland Development (CSID) and the quality of the management involved, the leader of the Progressive Democrats said that splitting the dual role of chairman/chief executive had been necessary to resolve the situation.
There are, she told The Irish Times, "a number of worrying things about CSID. The rising costs and what was happening last year led us (the PDs) to seek an independent overview from HPR (High Point Rendel) and we have to ensure that the conclusions of that report are implemented in the first instance."
DC: That report found management at CSID lacked experience in dealing with such a huge development and should be strengthened. It also found the project was likely to cost double the estimated outlay. What should happen now?
MH: Splitting the functions of the chairman and chief executive was agreed last year by the Government. For corporate governance reasons, it was important to do that because the alternative is bad practice.
But that is very separate from the criticisms of the management structures and the skills that the proposed project needs and HPR were critical of those. I think we have to draw conclusions from that.
Personally, in projects like this, I would like to see a more central role for the OPW. They are the Government's project managers.
They have managed huge projects in the past and they have enormous experience. Ideally, I would like to see an official from the OPW being appointed as chief executive.
DC: The OPW left the project two years ago when it wasn't allowed to manage the various elements involved. Should that change?
MH: Yes. I think that situation is very unsatisfactory from the point of view of value for money. We cannot continue to operate in this fashion. Campus Stadium Ireland wouldn't be a priority for me.
The PDs would put all the sports-side investment into the existing infrastructure and upgrade that and invest in sport at local level. That is why we decided that no decision to move ahead with the campus project will be taken in the lifetime of this Government.
DC: With a general election likely to be called soon, are you confident the party will do well?
MH: I expect to do substantially better than last time. With four seats we have achieved a lot, much, much more than the size of the party would suggest and we have given good value for the votes we got. I expect to return to the Dáil with eight seats after the election.
DC: Would you favour forming a government with Fianna Fáil or Fine Gael after that contest?
MH: It would be a question of negotiating a policy agreement with each other. But I don't envisage a situation where Fine Gael will lead the next government.
The next government is almost certain to be led by Fianna Fáil. There is no doubt about that.
But I don't think it will have an overall majority. I hope it doesn't happen. I don't think it will happen.
DC: Are you disappointed that more progress has not been made by the various tribunals and the 16 inquiries instituted by your department into fraud and corporate corruption?
MH: When I went into the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, I never envisaged that I would become so immersed in inquiries. That all flowed from the McCracken report. One query led to another and, as you know, the legal process is very slow. When we sought to investigate events that went back over years, there were legal challenges.
I understand, however, that the National Irish Bank inquiry and the Ansbacher inquiry have been completed and the inspectors involved are engaging in what is broadly called "due process" before they go back to the court. They are officers of the court.
Notwithstanding the outcome of the inquiries, there are a number of examples of criminal cases being taken. We had the first-ever successful prosecution under the Companies Acts; in the past the law was not enforced and there was a culture of non-compliance. The department had 1½ civil servants to police the Acts and to do other things, but that has now changed.
The new Office of Director of Corporate Enforcement that I established is staffed by Garda, lawyers and accountants and is fully resourced; it is clear of ministerial influence and is operationally independent to carry out inquiries and enforce regulations away from political decision-making. I had to make sure it was established on a fair and impartial basis and I am happy I have done that.
DC: Do you regret that comments you made led to the collapse of the trial of Charlie Haughey for obstructing the McCracken Tribunal?
MH: There was a lot of speculation about that interview and about my motivation. But I responded in exactly the same way to a question put to me a month earlier and there was no fuss about that. Perhaps the circumstances were different. I regret the consequences of what I said very much. Regret is probably too mild a word to use. I felt dreadful. I suppose I expressed a view in a forthright fashion and I didn't for a moment expect the legal consequences it had.
DC: Following the McDowell report, you failed to introduce consumer protection legislation where the banking system and reform of the Central Bank was concerned?
MH: It is no secret that there is a difference of perspective between the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment and the Department of Finance, between those who broadly represent the consumer and those who represent the Central Bank, and that difference led to legislation being delayed.
But I expect the legislation will be approved by Cabinet within the next two weeks. We have finalised the legislation and reached agreement between the two departments. There will be an independent regulatory authority, with independent powers and its own staff, and there will be a Director of Consumer Protection. I expect the Minister for Finance will announce the composition of an interim board for the regulatory authority shortly. Since we have reached agreement, I don't envisage any further difficulties. The legislation will not be enacted in the lifetime of this Government, but it will be published.
DC: You have been accused of failing to protect non-EU workers brought here by agencies on a work permit system.
MH: I believe that to be totally untrue. I changed the application forms so that employees would know precisely what the terms of their employment would be; their pay and remuneration and conditions of work. Before renewal of their P60s, checks are conducted to ensure that people are paid the rates appropriate and the number of labour inspectors involved in this area has been increased from 10 to 17.
I have refused to grant permits to companies where it was found their workers had been exploited. It would be wrong to say that we are not enforcing the law.
I was the one who brought in the minimum wage and nobody can earn less than the minimum.
It is the case that the bulk of those coming in under the permit regime are going to low paid jobs. I issued 36,000 permits last year and a further 6,000 in the first two months of this year.
The bulk of those coming here, other than nurses and paramedics, are going to thecatering, horticultural and agricultural services, and they tend to be areas where employers have difficulty in finding Irish workers to take the jobs. A new FÁS regime has been brought in to ensure that employers pay people the going rate.
DC: There were 20,000 job redundancies last year and the figures have risen in the first few months of this year. What are the prospects for the economy?
MH: We did lose 20,000 jobs last year, but we created an additional 42,000 jobs at the same time.
Although the number was higher, it still only represented 1 to1.5 per cent of the workforce in the trading sector and in basic manufacturing it is impossible to be competitive from a base like ours.
That is the main place we are losing jobs and we have to reskill and re-equip the workforce for new and different jobs.
Unemployment is down to 4 per cent; emigration has ended; there are at least 70,000 foreign workers here and the economy will grow this year by 4 or 5 per cent.
While we have experienced a slowdown following the ripple effect of September 11th in the US and foot-and-mouth here, employment continues to be strong.
DC: Des O'Malley complained the level of Government expenditure was unsustainable at your recent party conference. What do you think?
MH: There has to be a link between the revenue base and the expenditure of the Government. We cannot go back to deficit budgeting. We have to balance the books.
We took the approach, while revenue was buoyant, to build up the services base and to increase spending on welfare and pensions. While unemployment has fallen by 100,000, the amount of money spent on welfare has increased by over 50 per cent.
We increased spending on health substantially and on education and on crucial pieces of the infrastructure. Des is right. We cannot continue with overspending if revenues are reducing and therefore there has to be a correction between the two.
In our election manifesto, which we will publish shortly after Easter, I will be very clear in making those commitments.
But we don't have to have cutbacks; we just have to reduce the growth in expenditure from a very high base.
DC: Has your recent marriage changed your life?
MH: Marriage has certainly changed my life. At the age of 48, when you share your life with somebody else after having lived on your own for many years, there is a huge transformation.
When one lives on one's own, you get up whenever you like, you leave early in the morning and you come back late at night and you don't have to think about another person in that sense. So that has changed.
Because I lead such a busy life, trying to share my life with my husband is a constant challenge. And I am lucky that he is interested in many of the things that interest me. I think it has brought a healthier balance to my life.
DC: How long do you intend to remain on as leader of the Progressive Democrats?
MH: To be honest, I don't know. I used to say, many years ago when I first went into politics, that I would do something else when I was 40 years of age. But now that I am well past 40, I would like on some occasion to do something else. You cannot have the same job forever. But I am not planning to quit in the short-term anyway and by that I mean in the next couple of years.