Former government press secretary Frank Dunlop has insisted businessman Christopher Jones knew he would be paying money to councillors in return for their support for the rezoning of his land.
The tribunal is investigating the payment by Mr Jones and his companies of £60,000 to Mr Dunlop and the lobbyist's claim that he spent £11,000 of this on payments to Dublin county councillors.
Mr Jones separately gave over £45,000 to politicians at a time when he was trying to rezone his land at Ballycullen, south Dublin.
"It is my belief that they must have known from all the circumstances that money would have to be paid to county councillors," Mr Dunlop said yesterday of Mr Jones and the financial controller of the Jones Group, Derry Hussey. They deny knowledge of payments by Mr Dunlop to councillors.
Mr Dunlop said there was no specific discussion with either man regarding the payment of money to councillors. However, he advised them that the "ways of the world" would have to apply, and they were both experienced businessmen.
Neither had said to him that they wanted payments made to such-and-such a councillor, but there was a recognition on their part that there was a "system", he said.
In the context of these discussions, Mr Jones had given him the impression that he was a target for political parties looking for money, and he was "fed up" giving money.
Mr Dunlop described the two businessmen as "intelligent, reasonable, honourable people who knew what business is about". They didn't require people to say "I want you to pay x y z", but the "culture" of their meetings would indicate that the "ways of the world" would apply.
As well as denying knowledge of payments by Mr Dunlop to councillors, Mr Jones and Mr Hussey deny he advised them "the ways of the world" would apply.
Mr Dunlop said he would invariably pay councillors between £1,000 and £5,000 in return for signing a rezoning motion.
There was a going rate for such signatures, he said, and negotiations would take place with the councillor on the actual amount to be paid. This would depend on the size of the development, what the developer was prepared to pay and the negotiating skills of the councillor and himself.
He said very rarely was a signature given for less than £1,000 and more often sums of £2,000, £3,000 and even £5,000 were paid.
In relation to the Ballycullen rezoning, he said Cllr Tom Hand had asked for more than the £2,000, which he was given. When this was agreed, he said: "I hope you're not giving [ councillor Don] Lydon more."
