FINE GAEL TD John O’Mahony has called for savings to be made at a political level. “If we are going to tackle the recession in our country, we must all live within our means,” he said. “And that starts at the top. It also includes TDs . . . and whatever else has to be done.”

Mr O’Mahony said there was now a situation where the public was not getting an efficient service and value for money.

“Over the years, and particularly in 2007, extra junior ministerial posts were created, not to give a better service, but to help to cobble together a government.

“People were identified first and then the jobs had to be found for them. That might be a good way to hang onto power, but it is not an acceptable use of resources.”

Mr O’Mahony was speaking during the resumed debate on his party’s Private Members’ motion calling on the Government to reduce the number of Ministers of State by eight from 20 and to reduce the staff allocated to work on constituency matters to two per Minister.

A Government amendment, which was carried by 77 votes to 72, noted that the business of Government had grown in terms of volume and complexity, and urged the expenditure review group to expedite its review of where reductions could be achieved.

Minister of State Barry Andrews criticised Fine Gael for using an excess of Dáil time to discuss the issue, given “the minor nature of these savings”. Referring to the workload of Ministers of State, he said that colleagues had said to him: “I would not do your job for all the tea in China.”

He said that the reduction in Ministers of State was “a niche and in-house issue”.

Michael D Higgins said that he was opposed to the shortening of times for speeches by TDs in the chamber. The number of Ministers of State should not be judged on the basis of the patronage of the leader of the party in power, he added.

Minister of State John Curran said that while Dáil reform needed to be debated, it should be done in a detailed manner. He believed that the reference to reducing the number of Ministers of State was populist.

Minister of State Michael Kitt said that there was some uninformed comment in the media about Ministers of State. There had been a reference to the State cars used by junior ministers. “It is over 25 years since Garret FitzGerald . . . introduced the idea of Ministers of State purchasing their own cars and employing two civilian drivers”.