Edited extracts of the exchange between journalist Vincent Browne and Taoiseach Bertie Ahern .
Vincent Browne:My first question has nothing to do with the planning tribunal. When you were making full disclosure of your financial dealings last September, in your interview with Bryan Dobson on RTÉ and in your subsequent Dáil statements, why did you not disclose then that you received £30,000 in sterling in cash from Michael Wall in your office in St Luke's on the 2nd of December 1994, that was three days before you were expected to be elected taoiseach for the first time? Nothing to do with the tribunal?
Bertie Ahern:Vincent, I will deal with all those issues but that money was not money for me. It was money for his affairs, in his house. I hope that answers the question.
Browne:No it doesn't . . . first of all you took the money and put it in your own bank safe and secondly it was lodged in an account of your then partner. So this was money that either you or your partner then received. Now why didn't you tell us about this last September when you were purportedly revealing all?
Ahern:I revealed last year all of the issues that were relevant to me. The money you are talking about and the money that has been in the public domain was his money, money administered by Celia Larkin on his behalf.
And I think nobody wants this issue, all of these issues, resolved more than me. But my view Vincent is, there is a place to do this. That's in the tribunal.
From my point of view I think the Irish people deserve a campaign on issues. This tribunal is not about my affairs. It is about whether I received money from Owen O'Callaghan, or did I do something about blocking Quarryvale. That is nothing to do with money that was given by a person who was purchasing a house I subsequently rented.
There is no accusation against me whatever about Michael Wall or about renting a house. The accusation is about the O'Callaghan case, and people know that I have always been interested in public service, not private gain, and in this campaign I trust the Irish people will see through the politics of this, and there is nothing in the politics of this that I am guilty of. (Big cheer and applause)
Browne:I for one accept that you are entirely innocent of the allegations made in respect of Owen O'Callaghan, and I accept your word and that is not an issue. The issue I am exploring is to do with the 30,000 and apparently you are alleging, or you are claiming, that the 30,000 was for the renovation of a house in which you were putting 50,000 towards that, a total of 80,000 for the renovation of a house that was worth no more than 140,000 or 150,000 at the time when the house was only three or four years old at the time.
Your credibility comes into question in that regard. What were you doing committing to put 50,000 into the renovation of a house you were purporting merely to rent, albeit with a purchase option? A lot of people don't find it credible that that money was for the purpose - 80,000 for the purpose of renovation of a house worth about 140,000, a four-year-old house.
Ahern:Well, Vincent you read the transcript obviously, that is quite clear. And as you know that isn't what was spent on the house. That isn't what was spent on the house.
Browne:I know it isn't. But that is what the money was for . . .
Ahern:Vincent, I have given all of the detail to the tribunal and I have explained that. That was not my money. It was Mr Wall's money administered by Celia Larkin and I have given all the details on that. The issues that I gave out last year were the issues that were my money and I have given all of those details, Vincent, and the rest of the questions I will deal with it at the Mahon tribunal
Browne:It is incredible that that money was for the purpose of renovations of a house (PJ Mara, Fianna Fáil director of elections, signals for Vincent to wrap up) . . . I am sorry PJ. Might I remind PJ that 20 years ago at Fianna Fáil press conferences we attempted to press the then leader of Fianna Fáil on his financial affairs and we were obstructed in doing so. We were obstructed in doing so again in 1989 and I hope Fianna Fáil has changed and there won't be obstruction in doing so now.
The problem about this money that you got from Michael Wall is that is ain't credible that it is for the purposes of the renovation of a house. The house is a new house. You are saying that that 30,000 was for the renovation of a new house worth only four times that, and that he was going to rent that house to you for merely 450 a month and that in addition you were going to put 50,000 into the renovation of a house you weren't going to own at that time.
Ahern:If you read the transcript which you obviously did, it shows precisely that he spent some money on the house. But it's his money and his house . . . surely I am not responsible. If Vincent Browne bought the house and Vincent Browne got somebody to administer money for that house and that person administers the money on that house and the bills are all sent to a tribunal. All the bills relating to that money were all given to a tribunal . . . therefore should I be answering that? That is an unreasonable position. (Applause)
Browne:Let me confine the question to why did you put 50,000 into the renovation of a house you were merely going to rent?
Ahern:But Vincent, I didn't.
Browne: I know you didn't but you undertook it.
Ahern:Because if I have money in my own account Vincent and I want to have money to do something in my own accounts . . . within my own savings . . . what is wrong with me doing that? Is it illegal for me to allocate within my own income why I should have money available to meet with something? (Cheers)
Browne:But you would undertake . . . and I know you didn't do so eventually . . . To invest £50,000 in the renovation of a house worth £150,000, a house that you were merely going to rent, is that credible?
Ahern:But Vincent, it didn't happen.
Browne:I know it but . . .
Ahern:But why you ask me. If I had money allocated
PJ Mara: Vincent . . .
Ahern:Let's be frank about this, this has nothing to do with the tribunal. Michael Wall and Celia Larkin in my view - nothing to do with the tribunal. When I allocated my money for uses . . . I'm entitled to do that. I earned the money. I got some of it from friends. It was my money. Are you questioning that I shouldn't be allowed to use my . . .? Vincent, I don't want to say about it . . . (applause and cheers)