THE VINCENT BROWNE INTERVIEW/Pat Byrne: Garda Commissioner Mr Pat Byrne claims that Garda visibility on the streets is growing week by week
Pat Byrne's grandfather's Garda hat is on a table in the corner of his ornate office.
There is a photograph of Veronica Guerin on the wall. A chandelier hangs from a low ceiling. There is an ornate Georgian fireplace, sofas and arm chairs. All very relaxed. I made several admissions in the course of the interrogation.
We had met at a party a few months ago. He had sung a song (I've forgotten what). His wife had recited a poem (I've forgotten what) - incidentally, she had no good explanation for ending up with him.
She had proudly talked about their children in the Garda - a girl in Store Street and a son in Santry.
Another son is in the workforce - reasonably, they don't want publicity for that - and the youngest is still at school (by the way she was proud of the other children too).
The host of the party got drunk and I wanted him arrested. But whenever you need a garda, that happens?
And there was a former Garda Commissioner present as well and he too sang a song (I've forgotten what).
Pat Byrne was born on February 5th, 1946, in a small village in north-west Co Cork, Knocknagree, near Slieve Lucra.
His father was from Marino in Dublin and was a member of the Garda. He went to primary school locally, and then to a secondary school at St Ronan's College, Dunmanway.
His only other "college" , apart from Templemore, was at the FBI academy whwere he attended courses in 1987 and 1994.
On becoming a garda, he served first in Kilmainham, then joined the Special Branch, where he spent 13 years.
Then to Tipperary as superintendent, later promoted to head of personnel, then deputy commisioner and Commissioner in 1996.
There has been controversy over a house he bought in Co Meath.
The previous owner had been convicted of manslaughter 30 years previously.
Supt John Farrelly, of the Garda Press Office, sat in on the interview and at times chipped in with clarifications.
I think he made notes of the admissions.
When I went to leave, I found the tyre on my car was punctured.
Supt Farrelly said I could claim this was Garda harassment.
VB: Has the crime situation improved over the last 4½ years (the lifetime of the present Government)?
PB: Crime figures fluctuate year by year. In 1983, it (the crime figure) was at a high. It was at 102,000; we're talking about serious crime. In 1995, it was also at the level of 102,000 but if you look at the graph, it goes up and down year by year.
VB: There seems to be a lot of concern about crimes related to the abuse of alcohol by young people and related crimes of serious assault on the streets.
PB: The one drug that gives us (the Garda) the greatest problem is the abuse of alcohol and that is affecting us on the streets every night. Young people are coming out onto the streets fuelled up; hitting the streets in their thousands. There is a difficulty getting them off the streets. One word borrows another, a row develops and we have serious assaults. And that's replicated right around the country. People ask is it because the (pub opening) hours have been extended. I don't think it should matter whether the hours are extended or not extended for people to behave in a particular way.
VB: What can be done about it?
PB: Law enforcement must play a part in it. In 2000, we dealt with 60,000 public order offences, i.e. drunk and disorderly, refusing to obey directions of the Garda, those type of things. We processed 38,000 cases which means that we obviously cautioned 22,000 people. We sent them home, or whatever; put them into taxis.
So law enforcement has a role to play in terms of visibility on the streets and we are trying to enhance that week by week with the numbers we have. But it's more than that. There's a role for families, there's a role particularly for parents in relation to the behaviour of young people. There's a role for the whole criminal justice system. Let's be quite honest, the whole system can only cater for a certain level (of cases)
VB: If alcohol abuse is the major drug problem, why is so much Garda time devoted to the so-called problem of cannabis?
PB: We don't focus on cannabis. We focus on people who are engaged in drug importation, drug distribution.
VB: Why bother if drugs are inconsequential?
PB: Well, that's the law. That's the law at this particular time. Now, it doesn't mean that if we didn't focus on cannabis that there would be more time to focus on something else because the people who are involved in cannabis are involved in ecstasy, they are involved in cocaine, they are involved in armed robberies, they are involved in everything else.
The person who is involved in distributing cannabis is not just a specialist in cannabis. Some people seem to think that if you hadn't focused on cannabis that you'd have had this massive resource to deploy in other areas. It doesn't work like that. We focus on the criminals involved in illegal activities. If they're involved in cannabis, you may be sure they are involved in ecstasy as well. Cocaine is beginning to grab a hold now in the more affluent...
VB: That's just middle-aged people going through a middle-age crisis.
PB: No. No, although they might need it (laughs) unfortunately it's in some of our clubs.
VB: Why not let them at it?
PB: Well as a police officer, I can't say that but...
VB: Have you ever had it yourself?
PB: No, I haven't...
VB: Cocaine?
PB: No. No. I have not...
VB: Ever seen it, apart from in your line of duty?
PB: No. Not personally. But I could tell you where to get it (Laughs).
VB: One of the criticisms made of the Garda, and in particular the Garda Crime Report, is that they're to focus on the crimes of the poor and neglect the crimes of the rich. For instance, the report doesn't deal with tax fraud. Now I know that the Revenue Commissioners are primarily responsible for the detection of tax frauds but still it's a crime. Why doesn't it get into the crime reports?
PB: Well, we deal with the crimes that we have to deal with and encounter on a yearly basis. I think, in fairness, when you look at our report, it has nearly 200 pages. It deals with all aspects of policing today and it bemuses me at times that just one little aspect is picked out of the report
VB: They are largely the crimes of the poor,nd the crimes of the rich, the whole area of corporate crimes, the whole area of, for instance, related to the Ansbacher accounts, have no mention.
PB: You know there is a new corporate authority to deal with that.
VB: Urinating in a public place gets a mention in the Garda Crime Report and mega-fraud related to tax doesn't get a mention. No reference to tax fraud, currency fraud, taking money out of the country illegally.
PB: Those are for the Revenue Commissioners. We will deal with them if we are called in to investigate them. You know you can talk about Ansbacher, you can talk about all these things; first of all we have got to be called in to investigate these things.
VB: Crime under the company law acts doesn't get a mention either.
PB: That's been dealt with now by a separate authority.
VB: On the question of the crime report, the report for the year 2000 was published in January of this year, two years late. Why?
PB: The difficulty we had was that we have a new system for the gathering of information and gathering of the crime returns. The system we have at the moment is one of the largest information technology systems available. The changeover delayed it. That was just a once-off.
VB: You must know, therefore, the headline data for 2001?
PB: I'm not going to go into them. I have responsibility first of all to inform the Minister and we will be doing that in the near future.
VB: In general, what does the outcome for 2001 look like. Will the crime figures be up or down on 2000?
PB: Oh, I'd say that they'll probably be marginally up.
VB: Marginally?
PB: Some will be up and some will be down.
VB: How about in relation to what one would call serious crime. Will those figures be up?
PB: Well, that's what I am referring to. I'm saying the serious crime may be marginally up.
VB: We were promised zero tolerance of crime five years ago (by Mr O'Donoghue, who is now Minister for Justice and Law Reform). Was that a serious proposition?
PB: Zero tolerance is a buzz word or a buzz phrase and it suggests no tolerance for crime. Now, if you are saying that we are to have absolutely no tolerance then discretion is removed from the police force and I don't believe that this society would accept that.
I think there has to be discretion. But I think that when you look at what we have achieved in the past number of years, you'll see that we have been very firm in dealing with serious crime. I think when you look at what we have done in relation to terrorism, what we have done in relation to organised crime, I think it's quite obvious that we have been very rigorous in our approach to it.
VB: Although a number of organised criminal gangs seem to have been targeted successfully, they have been replaced by other criminal gangs. For instance, the availability of hard drugs seems to be as plentiful now as it was five years ago?
PB: Well, I think it's fair to say that we have put an awful lot of people behind bars in the last five/six years. We had a set of circumstances post the Veronica Guerin murder, just when I was appointed Commissioner, where we had to confront organised crime on a national basis.
I do believe that, looking, back , people will see that we have made major inroads into organised crime but you are quite right, you take out a number of heads and more replace them.
You take out a number of gangs and more young people come to the surface. Perhaps more violent than their predecessors but we are continually targeting those people and I am very confident with the way we have focused on these people that a lot more will be put behind bars because on a day-to-day basis, the units that we have set up to deal with them are achieving success.
VB: Does the "Real IRA" continue to threaten the peace process or is it marginal and can be coped with adequately by the law enforcement agencies North and South?
PB: They can be contained but I think you've got to look back and see while we contained them in previous years we had Omagh. Prior to Omagh we had many successes in relation to curtailing their activities, arresting them, preventing them from bombing targets in the North, but they got through a number of times. In a way, when you see what happened in Omagh, what I am saying is they have the capacity to do something like that again.
VB: How many members of the "Real IRA" do you estimate there are?
PB: Well, it's difficult to quantify but I would say that, between North and South, the figure that we have used - both the Police Service in Northern Ireland and ourselves - is less than 100.
VB: How about Continuity IRA, are they a factor?
PB: They are a factor that interplays with the "Real IRA" but the focus of the security forces would be towards the "Real IRA".
VB: Are you satisfied that the Provisional IRA now is entirely inactive?
PB: The organisation is still in existence; it still has maintained its command structure. The cessation of violence is still there.
I would have concerns in relation to what I read about in the North: punishment shootings, punishment beatings. I would have concern about vigilantes down here
VB: Are you conscious of their being a crime problem emanating from among the asylum-seeker community?
PB: There is not a major crime problem. Of course, there are people who are here seeking asylum, some of which are involved and engaged in crime, but it probably reflects the rest of society.
VB:. Would you welcome the appointment of an ombudsman with the same powers and investigatory authority as the Northern Ireland Ombudsman?
PB: I think the time has come for an independent inspector and I'd welcome it. I am not saying along the lines of the Ombudsman in the North, I just don't know.
But in the end of the day you must ensure that you do not undermine the effectiveness of your police service. That's vital. At the end of the day, if you undermine that, the only people that benefit are those involved in criminality.