Extracts from the exchanges between Judge Alan Mahon and the Taoiseach's counsel, Conor Maguire SC.
MR MAGUIRE:I have to ask the question, are tribunal counsel in any way involved in the assessment of the situation? In other words, between the time I made my submission and the time you made your judgment, was the tribunal counsel in any way involved in the making of that decision? Because if it wasn't -
CHAIRMAN:Well I can answer that. I mean obviously they are involved to the extent that they have to identify the material and the transcripts and then the decisions - and the decisions reached by the tribunal are our own decisions . . . any suggestion that the decisions that we make are those of our counsel, or any of our other staff in the tribunal and not our own, is absolutely not the case.
And it is one that I would have to say we would take offence at.
I mean, the purpose of your submission now, is you are putting into the public arena a suggestion that you believe that we three judges are being in some way manipulated by our counsel and by our staff. And ideally, you should withdraw that. I doubt if you will, but it's not an appropriate point to make, I believe, in public, or indeed at all, unless you have evidence to suggest that that sort of thing is going on.
JUDGE GERALD KEYS:You shouldn't be saying it.
MR MAGUIRE: . . .I know that you have said before that there have been occasions in which you have sided against tribunal counsel. I can't recollect any one in which I was involved in. And it's inevitable. You are now -
CHAIRMAN:Mr Maguire.
MR MAGUIRE:Can I finish?
CHAIRMAN:No, you can't finish. Just wait there a minute.
You are now suggesting that every time we come to make a decision it's pro our own counsel and it's against the witness. And I presume you go beyond just Mr Ahern on that point. That is simply not the case. And I can recall numerous instances where we have ruled against our own counsel . . .
I am going to ask you again, I can't direct you do it, that you withdraw any suggestion that we are, we are acting in some way in the pockets under the control of our counsel or any of our staff.
MR MAGUIRE:You use the words -
CHAIRMAN:You can either withdraw it or not withdraw it . . .
It's said for a purpose so that tomorrow there will be headlines on the newspapers 'Mr Ahern's counsel attacks the tribunal and accused them of avoiding the responsibilities'. We have taken oaths when we were appointed the judges and those oaths are important to us. And we have never, ever conducted our work in any way which could be seen to be controlled by our counsel . . .
Later Judge Mahon quoted Mr Maguire's question on whether tribunal counsel were involved in the tribunal's decision to reject a submission from Mr Maguire.
CHAIRMAN:Now that is a disgraceful comment to make and I absolutely reject it. And you should withdraw it because it's quite clear anybody listening to that. Any member of the public here would say this is an allegation, this is an allegation -
You are making an allegation that we are and you've said it before. That we are pursuing some sort of agenda. You are saying in effect that we are corrupt, that we are -
MR MAGUIRE:I didn't say that, chairman, and you know I didn't say it.
CHAIRMAN:You have said it. You have said it . . . you have used the term "agenda". If we are following the agenda that you have accused us of and in effect, we reiterate now. The effect of that allegation is that you are saying that we are crooks. That's what you are saying.
MR MAGUIRE:I have never said -
CHAIRMAN:And that we ignore our oaths.
MR MAGUIRE:I'm not saying that and I didn't say it and I haven't said it and that's a distortion, chairman.
CHAIRMAN:That we are conducting a witch hunt. And how can that be interpreted as anything but an allegation that these three judges are off on some sort of a frolic of their own out to do down people in a way which is unconstitutional, unfair and is in effect criminal.
MR MAGUIRE:Chairman, you are putting a construction on matters which have not occurred . . .
CHAIRMAN:You are a former chairman of the Bar Council. You should have, if you had views about the tribunal counsel that you are suggesting that you have, that is unprofessional conduct on their part. And the proper course was for you to make a complaint to the Bar Council. You know what those rules are better than perhaps anyone in this room. You should have gone to the High Court long ago and said this tribunal is engaged in an agenda.
It's a most - it's the most - of all of the allegations that have ever been made against us, and many have been made, that is the most serious allegation because it is the one which, if it was established as being true, would completely undermine the work of the tribunal.
MR MAGUIRE:Now, chairman, you have magnified out of all proportion what my submissions to you were . . . I am making an application to you about a matter which is in contention between us and the tribunal counsel that one side of the argument has an access to you.
Now, you have used emotive words to describe what that means. I am not going to use whose words. And I haven't used them. And I know that you are doing the best that you can in all of the circumstances. But unfortunately it's the situation that we find ourselves here in, is that when there is controversy and you are the person that makes the decision, one person, one side of the argument has access to you and the other doesn't.
Now, that cannot in any sense of the word be fair and reasonable or be fair and equal treatment.
CHAIRMAN:The substance of what you are suggesting to the tribunal, is that in some way we are influenced to a degree that the decision that is we make are dictated by our counsel. They are not. And we exercise, we exercise absolute independence and we are most careful that we do that . . .
What I absolutely deplore is this constant theme that we have from you, that in some way we are on some sort of a twisted illegal corrupt frolic. We are not conducting an agenda.
MR MAGUIRE:I did not say that, chairman.