Sir, – I am a parent with three teenagers attending a post-primary school in Clondalkin and they are enjoying their education.
In 2009 our school was among the top 50 schools in published school league tables, and now we are not even in the top 400. By any stretch of the imagination this is a worrying problem and yet I can’t find out why this has happened.
I am thankful to the press for publishing these results, otherwise I would not have known where our school stands in terms of results.
For what it is worth I would pay teachers double their salary if I thought they could enrich my children’s lives.
I left school at 15 and have regretted it ever since. Pat King from ASTI (Letters, November 27th) may not like the school league tables, but they are a fact of life. I congratulate The Irish Times on its Education pages each week: they are very informative. – Yours, etc,
PAUL DORAN,
Monastery Walk,
Clondalkin,
Dublin 22.
Sir, – While not dismissing the argument that “parents need transparent information on schools” (Opinion, November 26th), research I have conducted indicates that not all parents are convinced that such information should be in the form of school league tables.
Two-thirds of the 1,915 parents who replied to a national questionnaire either disagreed or were unsure that school league tables should be published. While there was a desire among a cohort of parents for greater accountability for schools and teachers, the majority argued that school league tables based solely on academic performance “lowered the aim of education to a very narrow focus” and did not provide the full story behind a school’s academic success. There was a fear that the publication of such tables would result in a further narrowing of the curriculum, even greater emphasis placed on academic achievement resulting in additional stress for students. These parents were concerned that the publication of school league tables would lead to further inequalities within the education system, create “more class distinctions” and “one-upmanship between schools”. It was suggested that this could perpetuate “academic snobbery”, “elitism” and a “two-tiered system” resulting in schools in underprivileged areas becoming “marginalised” and “negatively labeled”. Some parents were keenly aware that comparing schools was not always a fair process as “out of school grinds have a huge bearing on school results . . . money talks” – therefore you are “not comparing apples with apples!”.
While acknowledging that differing views may exist within a diverse parent body, the findings are none the less telling. – Yours, etc,
Dr ORLA McCORMACK,
Lecturer in Education,
Department of Education &
Professional Studies,
University of Limerick.
Sir, – Gráinne Faller (Opinion, November 26th) provided a well-balanced discussion of the merits of providing school attainment data (“league tables”).
It seems inevitable that the usual superficial arguments against such provision are trotted out.
The first thing to note is that a clear majority of parents want to know the exam results of schools – as shown in a survey commissioned by the Department of Education some years ago. Those parents who are not interested are free to ignore them. A hallmark of democratic societies is that people have free access to information that may be important for their decisions and they get to make their own mind up. History tells us that if someone wants to keep you in the dark, ostensibly for your own benefit, then you have every right to be suspicious.
Second, a common argument is that comparing Leaving Certificate results across schools is not comparing like with like. This is a fair point and this is why it is necessary to compile more sophisticated “value added” data. Even without doing this, it is far from clear that imperfect data is worse than none. For example, we know that measures of inequality, public health, earnings, GNP, climate, etc, are imperfect but no one seriously suggests they should be kept from the public: we publish them while working to improve them. That’s what statisticians are for.
A third argument is that schools are multi-faceted and league tables ignore this. Nobody thinks that league tables tell you everything you need to know. But they do tell you something that some people need to know just as Whole School Evaluations provide other useful information.
Academic attainment in schools is, whether you like it or not, extremely important to parents and students. I saw an advertisement on the N11 recently from a well-known south Dublin school. Alongside its name it had “for personality and points”. It is hardly unique in seeing itself this way. There may well be individuals for whom the school’s milieu and its sporting activities are all important while exams are of no consequence, but I suggest that Ross O’Carroll-Kelly is not, in fact, representative of our young people. – Yours, etc,
Dr KEVIN DENNY,
School of Economics &
Geary Institute,
University College Dublin.
Sir, – Schools that send 100 per cent of their Leaving Certificate cohort to university are given the highest ranking in recently published league tables. This presumes that schools who managed to send all of their students to university are the best schools. I reject this assumption and consider its implication a disservice to education.
Schools which cater for their community have within their student cohort a range of abilities and aptitudes. Only some of these abilities and aptitudes are suitable for progression to university.
In any community there are children with special needs. Current policy and best practice is that these children should be educated in their local school. Schools are expected to set up facilities to include these students in mainstream education as much as possible. Some go further and provide a special class for certain categories of special needs.
Within any community there are children whose aptitudes are unsuitable for academic study. Many of them prepare directly for the world of work through programmes such as the Leaving Certificate Applied Programme. This and the traditional Leaving Certificate programme also provide vocational education leading to career paths in apprenticeships, post Leaving Certificate courses and the world of work itself.
The location of the nearest third-level college is a significant factor in students’ choice of further education. Schools along the Border will consider colleges in Northern Ireland. The North West Regional College in Derry has more than 20,000 pupils who have never been counted in any of these league tables. Schools in Donegal send many pupils to this college.
There is a strong tradition among Donegal people of emigration to Scotland for work. A similar tradition has developed in education, with many Leaving Certificate pupils applying to universities in Glasgow, Edinburgh and Aberdeen. Welsh universities send representatives to advertise their facilities to my school. These students are not accounted for in these tables.
League tables do not reflect the needs of the communities which schools serve. All of the students must be served; not just those with the academic ability to attend university. Quality career guidance will direct students to the career path that suits them best and ignore tables that interpret Irish university entrance as the highest award.
As principals and teachers we are employed to educate all of the students in our community. To send all of them to university would be to fail many of them. A 100 per cent transfer rate to university would be to fail the students in my care. – Is mise,
ANTHONY DOOGAN,
Principal,
Moville Community College,
Co Donegal.
A chara, – Dr LJ Haslett (November 27th) states that his school always publishes the average points score per candidate in the Leaving Cert for its students and suggests it is “regrettable” the average score is not recognised in league tables. He can’t seem to understand why other schools do not publish this information.
Perhaps other schools don’t publish this information because it does not tell the full story of any cohort of students, their many talents and skills. It is simply one aspect of education. Behind every set of points there is a human being. A student who has done their best. For some students, achieving any number of points while overcoming disability, disadvantage, mental health issues or other obstacles represents a hell of an achievement and on an individual level should be celebrated.
It is a mistake to fall into the trap of defining or valuing student or school achievement in terms of points. As Gráinne Fuller pointed out in her article in the Education pages (November 26th) there are many more holistic sources of information about schools available to parents which are more useful than a raw average which tells you nothing about the school or the students. – Is mise,
CARMEL de GRAE,
Bóthar Chnoc na Fuiseoige,
Baile Átha Cliath 9.