It’s Tuesday in the Ireland team room in Quinta do Lago and Josh van der Flier is leaving.
He has just spent a large tranche of the 15 minutes talking about how he battled anxiety before matches and part of his psychological switch-flicking was to have a cookie or doughnut the day before the game, which had a calming effect.
As he walks towards the door, Ireland and Lions team analyst Vinny Hammond, who – unseen behind a counter at the back of the room – has heard the entire interview, stands up to greet van der Flier as he passes and, with an outstretched arm, offers him a Danish pastry.
Van der Flier departs with a much broader smile than when he arrived. If you had to pick out some of the 36 players in the Irish squad who suffered from prematch anxiety, the ever-genial Irish openside flanker would not be among them.
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Now facing into his 10th Six Nations Championship, van der Flier is going back to where it first started against England in 2016, a different era, a different person, a different player.
“I wouldn’t say hugely different,” he says.
“But you probably grow as a player, you learn things and I wouldn’t be anywhere near as nervous and anxious as I was then before that first game. I suppose that was the first time I played England, there were a lot of nerves, ‘Am I good enough for this level?’ You always have those doubts that you have to push aside for a game to build your confidence.
“Back then I felt if I wasn’t really nervous, I wouldn’t play well. Now I’d be happy to be really relaxed knowing what works for me, whereas then I would have been anxious. I would have hated being anxious but felt that I needed to be anxious. It was one of them funny ones, so definitely that changed a lot.”
It wasn’t a eureka moment or an epiphany but more of a growing self-awareness. For some time, van der Flier lived with five other people who all played rugby and all spoke about rugby. Then he met his girlfriend, now wife, Sophie, who wasn’t so interested in talking shop. He found out two things: that it offered a better life balance and that less was more.
“I’d always be so strict on what I ate before a game. I’d still be strict,” he says. “But then I wouldn’t have any treats whatsoever, whereas now, the odd morning of a game, I might have a croissant, just to relax, something to enjoy.
“Or a day before the game, I’d have a doughnut or a couple of cookies. It’s enjoyable. It’s a small thing but it helps me relax . . . not being uptight, anxious about the game. That definitely helped me flick that switch. I don’t know if it would work for everyone. But I found that’s where I play my best.”
Now 31, he has had the age conversations with flanker Peter O’Mahony and prop Cian Healy, who have had impressive longevity. But reality struck a few weeks ago at Leinster when the players were being organised into teams. Everyone had to line up in order of age and he found himself close to the wrong end of the line.
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“It creeps up on you,” he says. “I wouldn’t consider myself old by any means. It certainly is something that once you get past the 30 mark, you need to be thinking [of] and they’ve been really helpful to me. They’ve given me a few tips here and there. You have to be more efficient, I suppose.
“I’ve been trying to get the body in as good a place as it could . . . my body feels the best it’s ever been, to be honest.”
These days he enjoys being present for big days in Dublin: the crowd, the pageantry, the noise and the fanfare.
“Absolutely, that’s another thing,” he says. “Even running out on the pitch, I smile to myself, ‘This is cool,’ know what I mean? Before I would always be a bit afraid, don’t even think of the crowd. Now I would think this is unbelievable, my family is in there.”